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if u think about it, it makes perfect sense. deaths been around since the very beginning. hes just as old if not older than god himself. i love have the actor portrayed him. this epi was very good
I found this to be incredibly stupid. Logically speaking, Death cannot exist until Life exists. The absence of life does not equal the presence of death. Only when there is life to be removed can Death exists, and if God = Life, then God must have existed before Death.
Secondly, the idea that Death can kill God. Say we take this assumption as Truth. If God can die, then that means that everything can die, which would include Death. So how does Death know that he won't be killed prior to God.
Thirdly, if we assume that Death and God are equals (ridiculous i know), and Death was bound to Satan by a weak little spell, then logically, God could be bound by a weak spell as well, so why wouldn't Lucifer bind God instead of Death? or Both?
This show seems to have taken a downward turn in its myth arc recently. It took 2 seasons to kill Yellow Eyes (a demon). It took 2 seasons to kill Lillith (a demon). But it only takes a single episode for them to take care of a Horsemen? How dumb is this.
I think the subject matter is a little bit over the writers heads at this point. What was once a compelling character study has some what deteriorated into a plot that takes itself too seriously. I miss creature of the week supernatural.
But Cas is back! Yay!
"Logically speaking, Death cannot exist until Life exists. The absence of life does not equal the presence of death. Only when there is life to be removed can Death exists, and if God = Life, then God must have existed before Death"
Exactly what i thought!
"If God can die"
Surly this implies that god exists...
"This show seems to have taken a downward turn in its myth arc recently. It took 2 seasons to kill Yellow Eyes (a demon). It took 2 seasons to kill Lillith (a demon). But it only takes a single episode for them to take care of a Horsemen? How dumb is this."
^ <- Yellow eyes was the "main villan" for Seasons 1&2, and Lillith was pretty much the "main villan" for Season 3&4. Lucifer is the "main villan" in this season, not the horsemen. I think that statement wasn't really thought through, although I can see why you'd think it.
& Death and God can be equals, in my eyes anyway. I don't think it was right for them to say that Death is older than God (doesn't exactly make sense, but maybe I'm over-looking something), but they could have been "born" or whatever at the same time, because everything dies. God "gives life" and Death takes it away, it's the natural cycle of life.I don't believe in God or any of that bullpah, but that's what I think.
@KanaKatasropheI understand that Lucifer is the "main villain" of the season, but my point had nothing to do with being main villains. My point is that the Horsemen are significantly more powerful than either demon, and yet the ease at which they are dispatched is ridiculously fast. If it took so long to kill two demons, then for the story's sake, I think that each Horsemen deserves more than a single episode to be defeated.
And I'm not saying that they can't have been "born" or whatever close to the same time, but like I said, Life must exist before Death can exist, and surely that logic means that God must exist before Death began (though it could have been quite close).
God and Death being equals is what i have a problem with. Think about it this way, God is an architect/engineer, creating life and everything, and Death is just the demolition guy that knocks down the building. If you've ever tried to make something, and then broken it, you know it is far more difficult to create than to destroy. So in that sense, God would not be equal to Death, he would be more powerful, and therefore, not Death's equal.
But back to the main point of this poster's subject "Death Can Kill God". If God can die, everything in existence can die as well, which includes Death, so why does Death think he will be reaping God? He surely could die before God does. (I hated this whole part of the conversation. It would have been far more compelling to drive home the point that neither Death nor God can die.) In any case, Death needs Life, or else he cannot exist.
I completely agree with what most people are saying, it kind of seems like they dragged out the season focusing on Lucifer and then all of the sudden there's this magical cure and it's over. I think I would have been better to have this revelation at the end of the season and then they spend season 6 hunting down the horsemen.
Although I do have to point out in response to them spending 2 seasons on yellow eyes and only one on the devil we must remember that that was back in the days of ghosts and haunting so they didn't actually focus on yellow eyes every episode like they have with Lucifer.
Anyone want to play with the idea that Crowley might be God in disguise? He's been helping the boys because he knew they'd never accept help from him. LOVED the 'mine is bigger' hellhound moment the other week. I also wonder whether Dean has already accepted Michael and we just haven't been told yet.We also need to explore where Dean's soul has gone - remember Famine said he was empty?
That's an interesting idea about Crowley. I've really enjoyed the character so far, I hope we get to see more of him.
I don't think Famine literally meant Dean was empty. Dean was just the kind of empty one is when one has lost all hope.
We know that "gods" can die, so why can't "God" die?
For all of the outrage that has been expressed, I'm surprised no one has mentioned that killing God and ending existence as we know it as a possible plot for the sixth season. just a thought.
"But back to the main point of this poster's subject "Death Can Kill God". If God can die, everything in existence can die as well, which includes Death, so why does Death think he will be reaping God? He surely could die before God does. (I hated this whole part of the conversation. It would have been far more compelling to drive home the point that neither Death nor God can die.) In any case, Death needs Life, or else he cannot exist."
Hence, the apocalypse when everything is destroyed including God and Death.
Besides if you think about the Bible it doesn't go as far back in history as oh say dinosaurs, hence death is older cause he obviously reaped them. There was life before the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, thus there was also death before them. So who is to say that Death would die if he reaped God, if there was life before Him then death can exist after Him.
@ K-runBased on Death's statements, and going by the show's premise, God is Life. Death said something to the point of "I am Death and He is Life". If God is (all-encompassing Life), as Death has claimed to be (all-encompassing Death), then the Judeo-Christian God had to have been around going back all the way in time for life to have existed. And as i said before if Life doesn't exist, Death cannot exist, so the minute Death reaps God, Death would cease to exist as well. I'm not saying that God can't die, just that if God can die, then so can Death, and therefore, who is to say God can't kill Death himself.
@plzngI'm not saying God can't die, especially in this show, but I don't think Death was 100% accurate about everything he said. Secondly, the gods that died in the show so far have been cast, from a show standpoint, as lesser than even angels. Almost in a "beings with extraordinary powers that got people to follow them, but not actually a real 'god' " kind of way.
@fudgefaseI don't think Dean has said yes to Michael yet, because if he had, why wouldn't Michael have just went in easily and ganked the Horsemen, instead of the difficult ways in which they attempted.
Your Crowley Idea is pretty interesting, and I think it'd be a fantastic twist for the story, but why would God hide himself as a demon? The boys went looking for him for help, so why do you think they wouldn't accept help from God? Maybe because they would just want him to stop the Apocalypse and He wants them to do it themselves? I'm not sure. The one thing they would have to figure out before going that direction though would be how to reconcile Crowley/God as being the head CrossRoads Demon.
In any case, I too hope to see much more of Crowley in the coming up season! He is hilarious.
did anyone else saw the title of this post somewhere, berfore watching the episode, and get really anoyed? I did! so spoilery..
anyway i don't find the idea that god can die and death can't. it is Death after all!and i don't think that God equals life because in the episode with the gods a few weeks ago they said that most gods were here first. and only after that did God come.
God can NOT kill death its just not feasible, as long as there is life there will be death. The only way death can die is if all of life is wiped out of existence. and yes in the end death WILL reap god and in doing so he will reap himself.
oh and to clarify about which came first death came before god because as the other gods said they were there before THE god. death came into existence the same moment life did, without death life could not be defined.
the other gods said they were on EARTH before God, not that they were in existence before God. Also, who's to say God wasn't there before the other gods and just walking the Earth like he was doing this season. He obviously has the ability to hide himself from people looking for Him, so feasibly He could have been there before the other gods, and just let them think that they were all here first.
The other question is whether the Judeo-Christian God is the equivalent of Life in the way that Death is the equivalent of Death.
And no, there can be life without death, but there cannot be death without life. Immortality is Life without death. death is simply the end, life is the journey, so if you never get to the end of the journey, you can have life without death. death is contingent on life, not the other way around.
no there cant be life without death its a fact of life that everything dies as soon as life comes into existence there must be death
zfountas: I don't remember it being said that God = life which is why I stated that Death existed before God and will exist after Him. Besides depending on which view of Christianity you take there is a chance that God was man before he became God, so in this instance even though He has become the all mighty, there is a chance of him being able to die. And since the writers of the show are just trying to mash everything together I doubt that we will find out in what view they are taking towards Christianity.
However, I am willing to accept that if in the show Death said that God does = life then if Death does reap God, Death will in turn die himself. One cannot exist without the other.
As for immortality... does it really exist? If we say that God can die then who out of anyone could even be considered immortal? The Roman gods can die, Norse gods can die, demons can die, tricksters can die, everything has a weakness which can result in death. Hence, immortality cannot actually exist in this instance. Vampires are considered immortal correct? And they can die. So death still exists even if someone is able to live for ever, because the ability to live forever can be trumped by death in some way.
Just going back onto something someone said earlier about Crowley being God, im not sure at all about that, I thought though at the end Chuck could be God, with his disappearing act and all, pretty sure he never did that before.
yah, chuck could be God. Only hole in that is, didn't Dean wear the amulet around Chuck before and it didn't burn hot? that's the only part that makes me think maybe he isn't. In some versions of christianity, 2 prophets, Elijah and Enoch were taken to Heaven without ever dying, so maybe that's what happened to Chuck. iono
Okay this is the way I see it...
1. Death and God came about at the same time.
2. You cannot have death without life, but you equally cannot have life without death. As soon as we're born we're dying, our cells die and regrow, die and regrow... but imperfectly. Hell, we replace our skeletons every 1.5 years (gradually of course), every time we create a new cell, its less perfect than the cell its replacing, hence wrinkles, weaker bones, etc.
3. If Death can reap God, then Death will die as well. If there is no life, there is no death... everything is connected and everything is related.
This is all assuming that its really that simple... which I doubt it is. None of us, no human, including the writers, can truly comprehend the complexity of life and death. None of us even knows what awaits on the other side, who are we to guess (that's all it is, guessing.) what goes on above our 'pay grade?'
Its nice to fantasize that we actually have any idea, I suppose.
Ok. Here we go.Let's assume God and Death are equals.Now lets also assume that they are part of a cycle.Now let's you are wrong.
Death = Nonexistence. The absence of life; nothingness; ceasing to be.
It makes perfect and logical sense that Death would exist before then, because he always was in the form of nonexistence.
So if God is life, he created existence, and when you die - Death, takes you out of it. So it's plausible God can be reaped by Death. He would not cease to be, since that is what he is...nothingness, loss, and total absence.
To think of God and death on the same level is just ridiculous. God created EVERYTHING which includes death. Death is not everywhere(like heaven or hell) and he does not know everything. He is a concept that ends life on earth.Death has been defeated many times in the series because people are easily resurrected and ghosts exists, all of them cheated death. The people that die don't really cease to exist they just go to heaven or hell. Where does God go if he is "reaped" nothing because he is everywhere or he might just simply go back to heaven.Death is not that old, he can only exist after creation. Nothing is older than God because before God there is nothing. AND death is not nothing, it is the ending of life here on Earth. God is timeless and eternal. Death is a concept for mortals not for the omnipotent God.In the apocalypse death is 1 out of 4 HORSEMAN plays a very small part. If death could "reap" God wouldn't that make him MORE than a mere HORSEMAN. He is a mere tool in the plans of God.
Also interesting thought. If Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life would death exist at all?
Alright near as I recall what has been said was that both god and death were around for so long neither remember who came first death or god. Which makes sense if I had been around billions upon billions of years I'd have forgotten about my coming into existance altogether as well. Also the four hoursemen being one episode and it being a long story spun around Lucifer is simply because they weren't certain if they were continuing past this episode so the complication of taking down horsemen ended up thrown under the bus for the main villain. Which is why the bosses in later seasons appear and disappear just as quick. 1 season and poof new threat, so can't complain too much there. God and Death are not equals death is actually fated to exist longer than god, the problem is everyone assumes God is life and Death it's natural reverse, however in all actuality the pagan gods were alive much longer as they bitch about with gabriel and they too gave life to creatures and people. Life was once known to come from the gods there for it is reasonable to assume life would carry on with or without god he isn't life but instead a large powerful invading force that invaded and conquered the previous gods domain and kept them in line. Also multitudes of other universes that death oversea's according to this episode and who knows how many of them god is supposed to control out there. I'd actually say this was a good episode I do agree it sucks that they ended up having to snowball it, but then again I've seen the one where they hunt a leprechaun and if I'm gonna have complaint with something it'd be the severe lack of new or interesting monsters to throw at Sam and Dean. I Love the show and all but really? Leprechauns and they're defeated by throwing coins on the floor? I know it's in lore but wow the lame play out just hurts ones mind. It's almost as bad as charmed's addition of stereotypicial leprechauns, faeries and other bizarre crap that you see before it all comes skidding or in some shows cases crashing to a halt with a wtf made them decide to flatline now after all this time.
oh in response to Zasdf to quote Castiel your bible gets more wrong than it does right which means god is not all powerful and all knowing and life itself, he is just another mythological creature just like all the others born and killable as any. The real life mythology may say otherwise, but in this story god is more powerful than the other myths because his myth is current and most people tend to follow that particular mythology right now so he's got more souls to dedicate to fuel his power. God didn't create everything he created the world specifically the one they occupy and a great deal many other things not sure where he begins or ends in this show exactly but so far seems like god frequently loses interest in that world he created.
Guys for me in reality god created all so it means god created death also for purpose.. just like satan.. and if death really exist he cant kill god. Cuz on the other side. The messenger, lucifer tries to stop the 4 horseman but failed then god was angry then it rain then they were burned.. and a question can lucifer the fourhorse man.. well lucifer is the right hand of god before and not even just the earth that he can wipe out he can wipe a big part of the universe and coupd kill a horseman for a sec if his not limmited to his power cuz of god.. now back to death and god, death is created by god and maybe god give him purpose to kill god himself, just an opinion guys... but for me death cant kill god. Mqybe lucifer and death can good part of the story death vs lucifer.
Guys for me in reality god created all so it means god created death also for purpose.. just like satan.. and if death really exist he cant kill god. Cuz on the other side. The messenger, lucifer tries to stop the 4 horseman but failed then god was angry then it rain then they were burned.. and a question can lucifer kill the fourhorse man.. well lucifer is the right hand of god before and not even just the earth that he can wipe out he can wipe a big part of the universe and coupd kill a horseman for a sec if his not limmited to his power cuz of god.. now back to death and god, death is created by god and maybe god give him purpose to kill god himself, just an opinion guys... but for me death cant kill god. Mqybe lucifer and death can good part of the story death vs lucifer.